DOP 50: DevOps in the Time of Mandated Remote Work

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2020

Show Notes

#50: For our 50th episode, we talk with the godfather of Devops, Patrick Debois. We talk about many things ranging from DevOps in a fully remote environment to the Muppets.

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Transcript

Darin Pope 0:00
This is episode number 50 of DevOps Paradox with Darin Pope and Viktor Farcic. I am Darin,

Viktor Farcic 0:06
and I am Viktor.

Darin Pope 0:08
For this 50th episode, we have a guest. Viktor, can you introduce our guest please?

Viktor Farcic 0:17
Yeah, it's Patrick. Now I'm gonna, I'm not sure whether I'm gonna pronounce the last name Debois. right way

Patrick Debois 0:25
very well

Viktor Farcic 0:28
I did my best. And I guess that almost everybody knows the person. I mean, it's he, he started the whole DevOps thingy. And everybody should know who you are. So we can skip the introductions unless you want to say something about yourself.

Patrick Debois 0:45
So just for the record, that was an accident, right? So I had no premeditation of starting DevOps, but a little bit of my background. Yes, for 10 years I followed the DevOps movement from the very first Devopsdays. I've been in IT for many years. And I think what's relevant for this is that I've done so many different roles. I've been a tester, operations manager, developer, you know, all the roles that I could do. Today, I am in a new role, even from January at Snyk, being Developer Relations or whatever that role means these days. So I've always took different roles and tried to understand what makes them work, what issues they have and how they work together. And I think hence DevOps is a result of understanding other roles there as well.

Darin Pope 1:44
It makes my heart happy to hear you say, Developer Relations, whatever that role means. At least that's a consistent answer that I hear from people. I'm not in that role. I'm in a services side, so it's It's good to hear that other parts of other companies still don't understand what that means. Now another tagline that I heard, and this is the first time we've spoken before is that you're the godfather of DevOps. Is that a safe assumption or have you been given that title by other people?

Patrick Debois 2:18
Yeah, but but not in the Italian way, right. Just as long as it's not that. Yeah. And I think I've been championing the ideas for a long time. That's where, you know, I take some credit and all the energy I put in there finding new ideas, and you know, a lot of people then I got enthusiastic, and from there, so I guess that's why they kind of gave me the title. So.

Darin Pope 2:48
Okay, so, so, if you want more history about Patrick, go Google it. There's going to be plenty to find. But in this crazy corona world that we live in, and not with lime. So it's a beer joke. And I don't even drink so it was even even worse that I said it.

Patrick Debois 3:08
It's not a Belgium beer joke.

Darin Pope 3:10
It's a what would be a Belgian beer joke?

Patrick Debois 3:14
I don't think there are any. They're all good.

Darin Pope 3:16
Okay. Okay. See, again, I I tried to joke and it just doesn't work. In the in this crazy world that we're living in at the moment today we're recording this on March 17. This is actually St. Patrick's Day. By the time you're hearing this, it's actually April 8th. If you're listening when it releases, the this whole global pandemic of COVID-19 has changed how we work. Now you listen to last week's episode about remote work. But let's talk about how DevOps should work in a remote first world.

Patrick Debois 3:58
Aha,

Darin Pope 3:59
because I'm assuming Patrick, that's not how you thought about DevOps working. Because if we think about people, process, and technology, people have to be together, in theory.

Patrick Debois 4:10
Well, I thought that as well. So a couple of years ago, at the first serverless conf, I was struggling with the same thing. And the reason why because our company was where I was working at that time. We were using a lot of cloud services or external services, and you know, you know, Amazon being one of them, and so on. And what was really strange is that we were trusting these other parties, as we would have trusted ops before in a company, but there were external to our company. We weren't even talking to people from Amazon, right and, and still they're part a almost like in a supplier role working together with us. And it wasn't necessary to be with them together, it wasn't even necessary for us to talk to them all the time to trust them, and to collaborate with them. So that kind of, you know, was a little bit strange for me in a way that did DevOps end by all using all cloud services and using things remote, and we don't have to work together anymore. So the cliffhanger right is like, the communication is just happening differently. Just gonna give a couple of examples of how I see companies or services or groups you know, creating trust from remote. Like, if you see a website that has a post mortem of a company, which is public, you kind of learn something about themselves, right? I'm not saying this is as efficient as you know, day to day collaboration, but you learn something about the persons behind it. And you know, that's just one example. I'm sure you guys have like seen that you kind of trust other groups or other people, even if they're not sitting next ot you, like people on the open source.

Viktor Farcic 6:25
Absolutely and open source is a good example I think. Probably the best example of people working together and not only being remote but very often not even meeting each other in person ever. And that still somehow works, right?

Darin Pope 6:40
Some people argue that it that it doesn't work,

Patrick Debois 6:42
maybe we aren't forced to sit together. So if we don't agree with that, then we can go somewhere else.

Viktor Farcic 6:49
Yeah, but if you look at kind of what the today's really successful projects, like, if you look at Kubernetes that's extremely successful, and then that's completely remote. I mean, I cannot say that there are not two people sitting next to each other that work in that project, but it is mostly if not fully remote, and then it's it is very successful. So I, I wouldn't agree with kind of that doesn't work. We know it does. Now the real question is, does it work for everybody, and all types of companies and all types of people.

Patrick Debois 7:23
But it is another way of having conversations, you know, where that I mentioned, maybe the almost like absolute, you put things on the website and so on. But when when we had a failure, for example, with Amazon, we had a support contract and we got somebody to talk to us. So, but the goal of the collaboration I think, within DevOps is not per se that you would have necessarily continuous interactions. If you can have fewer but they're more meaningful. Or more exceptions, and everybody builds to that. To kind of like let's say the metaphor I sometimes say is that at a party, it isn't a number of interactions that make it a good party. I don't know if you've ever had that at a party so

Darin Pope 8:20
well, I don't go to parties, so it for me, it's not a big deal. So, so this is so let's let's talk about the the COVID thing for just a second and we'll come back to this. I'm, I'm part of Gen X. I was born in 66. We were in there's been a bunch of memes about this. But we were built to outlast this thing. Because we're used to staying home. We want to stay home. But it's a bad joke. So anyway, it's me but it is about communication. You go to a party, you talk to one or two people. You're all good. right for me. I'm an I'm an introvert anyway. It's I'm much happier that way.

Viktor Farcic 8:59
Yeah. I mean, ultimately, it's not really about everybody talking. That's why probably analogy with the party is good. It's not about you talking with every single person. You can it's about finding a person or two or three, with whom you can have a meaningful conversation. You almost always smaller number than all the people you can that you could ever be in contact with. And that's probably how easily applicable to what we do to software development in that. You need to be able to communicate with every person that is relevant to your to the task you're performing right now, which can be nobody or five people or hopefully not more than 10.

Patrick Debois 9:45
Yeah. Is that getting close to the Dunbar number?

Viktor Farcic 9:50
I think so.

Darin Pope 9:51
Explain the Dunbar number for people that don't that do not understand Dunbar.

Patrick Debois 9:54
I think if I got it right, it's the number of people you have typically meaningful conversations with. If the number grows, it is harder to keep up with the network of all the people you in the kind of work with all the time. So did I get that right?

Viktor Farcic 10:18
Yeah, at least that's my understanding as well.

Patrick Debois 10:20
It's also the number of microservices, you can keep in your head, but then you have to do like the square from that. So that's

Darin Pope 10:31
the maximum number of micro services in my head one.

Patrick Debois 10:35
Not if you're an operations person.

Viktor Farcic 10:39
True. But so what do you think will be I would like to hear your opinion kind of, what do you think will be result? How will our industry look like half a year from now? Given that almost everybody is now getting used to remote. Will that stick? Will it go away? How will it affect how we do operations or whatever else we do?

Patrick Debois 11:02
well, for some operations is actually not new. But for those who do like the 24 hour follow the sun, they're already all remote doing that. I think we already got some hints from working from home using Slack. Doing that there seems to be this kind of swarming effect that we sometimes do. It's not per se related to it. But in a way, it does create this, like, Hey, I'm having this problem. All people come around it and that's not necessarily from remote, but it's the fact that it's virtual that you can do that, that already paved the way from for working from remote I think.

Viktor Farcic 11:55
but you touched the now one of the subjects that are becoming more and more painful for me. That's kind of that communicate communication overload that at least I'm experiencing. I had the impression that before I might have actually more productive conversations and less. And let's let's use less conversations then then I'm having now. And I feel like kind of if I don't check all the channels in my company, then I might be missing something. And then I spend hours in that.

Patrick Debois 12:31
Yeah, but I think that's probably not per se related to the being remote or not. I guess that's already happening. If you're in the same building. Now everybody's shouting at you. things come in from the internet. From your team lead, he CCing you on 20 emails, you know, that's the old style. Now it's like @here in Slack, and everybody gets the message. So I think it's as much like we had to educate our children about not talking on the phone while sitting at dinner. You know, there's some etiquette. That is the communication overload. I'm actually, for me personally, the overload has gone down while working from remote because I tend to be better at dealing with the time I want to work and the time I want to be available in a way. It is helping me being remote. If I would be at the office, everybody would come around all the time. So at least virtual I can say I'm not available and they can't even come to my place somewhere in the remote Belgium. Nobody will come so it is helping me in a way.

Viktor Farcic 13:50
But what you just said was very interesting to me. You said the the time when I'm working and the time when I'm available. So it is What do you mean by that kind of? Is that the time when when you're disconnected and do your job? And then you're connected to be available to people or?

Patrick Debois 14:08
Yeah, it's almost like I'm started making slots in my agenda where I'm available for remote meetings and people pinging me and the rest I'm more in deep focused work and not available all the time. So, but maybe it's also because the whole team I work in is used to working like that. If it's maybe more like a culture of working that way from remote, because we were all in the in the devrel group, and, you know, there's a lot of people traveling, and so on, and we don't need to be in contact all the time for those things. You know, I don't know how it's for you, Viktor. Maybe you can explain your situation there.

Viktor Farcic 14:54
Oh, mine is special kind of like I tend to work at nights and

Patrick Debois 14:58
so you're not available at night for calls

Viktor Farcic 15:01
yes, I tend to do the calls during the day and then do the real work during night. Because I found everything is quieter, and nobody's really, it's easier to concentrate for me at night. I don't know, I'm kind of like, I'm increasingly removing myself from more and more communication channels and in hopes that I will, I will remain in those that really matter in a way. Because you know, it's there is company Slack and then Kubernetes Slack and then you know, 17 other Slack channels that I felt in the past that are important. And now I'm feeling that actually it was a mistake on my part to participate in so many so many groups, let's say.

Patrick Debois 15:51
but did that change because of now working more remote? you were already...

Viktor Farcic 15:55
So no, I was I was remote for many years now. So in that sense, the only thing that changed now with the current situation is I'm not visiting other companies. But the work is work when it's not with other companies. It was, in my case, it's always remote. It's more that I think that the number of people communicating remotely is increasing. And then I need to start filtering more and more.

Patrick Debois 16:20
Oh, I see. So you're getting more requests for meetings then or like remote meetings, because

Viktor Farcic 16:26
not that much remote meeting since it's more like kind of, I mean, there are remote meetings but smaller, like, you know, 17 different Slack workspaces open, and then somebody is bound to mention your name and each of them at any given moment.

Patrick Debois 16:42
Maybe it's because they now have more time. So they work more efficient.

Viktor Farcic 16:47
Oh, yeah. I'm sure that actually, I do believe that for many people, right now, they're less efficient because for many people, it gets gets a bit of time until you get used to working from home and remote. And it's not only you getting used to as a person, but all your colleagues being somehow on the same page of what that means.

Patrick Debois 17:14
Yeah.

Viktor Farcic 17:15
So I would be guessing and I'm not really purely guessing that for many people, this first few weeks of remote work are challenging. And after that, I think that people are going going to start saying there is no turning back. I'm not going back to the office no matter the situation with the virus.

Patrick Debois 17:37
I do think it's, it's, it's a balance, right. So yeah, I used to run support for live TV shows and we did that all from remotes like even if it was a show in another country, we're all on Slack. You know it, everything was remote. Even the sales only remote. We hardly visit any other country. And it's doable. But when when things really matter, there is a little bit more efficiency when you're all together in the room because you can just shout out or if you're busy with something or really focused as a team, it works. But if you don't need that all the time, then it's fine to kind of, you know, work a little bit more remote at your own time at your own pace. I think conversation has been changing for a while, like, you know, I'm not saying GitOps as such, but the conversation has moved on those platforms. A little bit less need to be there in person so other people can watch the conversation. It isn't. I was at the meeting and everything was decided. And you know, we weren't there so you don't know what happened. That is though, you know, part of a new cultural thing, like nobody writes notes anymore of meetings or prepare for meetings, but that's another thing. You talk about being old. I remember those meetings. That you do need to prepare. But if Yeah, a lot of the, the conversation is volatile like, I think you are seeing as well. No, do something here do something there. And that's going to be a hard challenge. Also from working remote, a little bit of rigor of tying this always back to, you know what was discussed, if others weren't there in the Slack conversation wasn't on the call to, you know, to keep that back. I have good experiences while working remote when I was at Atlassian. But that only worked because everybody was remote. If you're the only one remote and the others are at the office, I usually find it like way harder to get a link or a connection to the people. Because you're not in their focus. You're not you're somewhere there but you're not on top of their mind because they're at the coffee machine or something else.

Viktor Farcic 19:57
Yeah. To me, that's the worst situation. I was in such a situation a couple of times and I, I reject ever being in such a situation again, because I had no idea what's going on when I was remote and most of the people in the office that that should be illegal that should be banned as an option even I believe.

Patrick Debois 20:17
Viktor said so.

Viktor Farcic 20:19
We they either everybody, almost everybody remote, or nobody, that's, that's my takeaway. This will probably change with time because on the other hand, I have the impression that even people that are all in that in an office are communicating more and more remote. You know kind of like you're sitting next to a colleague and he's still sending you Slack messages. So probably over time, it will literally there will probably be almost no distinction between remote and in an office.

Patrick Debois 20:57
It's interesting how also, you know, coming back maybe to the open source, the pull request the discussions online. It that was first invented from remote and then it came into the enterprise, it seems somehow like this, the same. asynchronous, maybe that's, that's what's gonna change asynchronous working way more because you know, I can work at my own time, but I'm remote I might not be available. So that flexibility might be another aspect of that we kind of use more when we working from from remote somehow.

Viktor Farcic 21:38
Yeah, I mean, asynchronous is interesting because at least once or twice a situation, I needed to have a conversation with people and tell them Okay, look, you don't you cannot expect me to answer immediately on Slack or whatever we're using. I will answer when I'm available to answer. If you need something you need to call me. If you expect immediate answer, call me. Otherwise, this is asynchronous. You post a message and reply might come immediately or next day. We don't know.

Patrick Debois 22:10
Maybe coming back to the original question. Does it change DevOps?

Viktor Farcic 22:16
Oh, yeah, I forgot what we talked about.

Darin Pope 22:20
That's, that's no different than normal. It's fine.

Patrick Debois 22:23
Yeah. So I think collaboration can still happen. I have a hard time figuring out why it shouldn't. But I understand it. It's almost like this podcast, there's a paradox. You know, we've been advocating sit more and more and more together and work together. And then now we can't do anymore, but I think the collaboration can still be going. I think it'd be harder to foster the initial almost like bonds and if you don't communicate often enough, it might like lose it a little bit. But I think that's no different from being in office and not seeing somebody for a long time or,

Viktor Farcic 23:07
but you know, I think that what is missing probably to make it fully efficient is maybe that periodical once in a in a year or whatever the period is face to face. In that sense, I think it's similar to an office, right? The boss might have his own office and he's going to communicate with you by phone by email by Slack, whatever it is. But then comes the time that we have real bonding, which is when we all get to the kitchen and just not necessarily even talk about work, but just get to know each other. Kind of, maybe I'm still old fashioned, but I still believe that kind of once we meet face to face, then all the communication that is not face to face anymore is so much more fluid, somehow.

Patrick Debois 23:55
Yeah, we started having virtual coffee hours and that just getting on a Zoom with people who are happened to be there. And I've seen way more people right now than I would have done before. Because now I get to they just show up and I wasn't in the main office. But now they're all working remote and I see them. So it is changing. I think many of the conferences, you know, also around open source or DevOps or people who like community, there is quite often, almost like, and we finally get together during this conference. We don't care too much about the content. But the fact that we are all seeing each other is way more valuable than the conference content.

Viktor Farcic 24:46
No, I love what you just said, because I felt weird so far, because I've been the only person I know that is saying that content of the conference is not the main reason to go to a conference. So it sounds great to hear somebody else saying the same thing, saying something similar.

Patrick Debois 25:02
because that can be recorded. You know, we're now working on this virtual conference. And it's almost like this psychology barrier that a speaker cannot be recorded ahead of time. And basically, it's doing the same, like nobody will interrupt the speaker while watching. So it could have been recorded. But the fact that you can have the discussion and talk to the people, that's the valuable part. You know, it's always for me, the hallway track, almost like why I go to a conference because the talks are recorded anyway, most of the time.

Viktor Farcic 25:37
There is a downside, at least in my case, that I tend to postpone watching recordings because there is always something else to do. And when I'm physically present then kind of, I'm almost forced to attend the talk

Patrick Debois 25:53
True. like a focus, you know,

Viktor Farcic 25:55
yeah, kind of like that's why I'm there. Kind of like I'm there to attend a talk or talks. Right. When it's recorded, then yes, when I when I look at it, there is no real difference between me watching recorded session and being on a conference except that it is very likely that I will postpone it maybe even indefinitely because, you know, there are other things that look like they're more important or urgent.

Patrick Debois 26:21
So imagine a conference that would apply the I think it's Snapchat right, where the content will be removed within a day. It's like forcing you to have to watch it, if not bad luck.

Viktor Farcic 26:39
Yeah, actually, I would. I would go with that kind of maybe even not after a day kind of It's live. It's happening now. And it's after the session is finished, its gone.

Patrick Debois 26:51
Yeah, but I think the downside for many and that's the same for you. It's like, how do sponsors then get to interact? Right at these conferences

Viktor Farcic 27:01
that that's true

Patrick Debois 27:02
that's gonna be totally weird. buy our virtual chat like, nope. well maybe if it would be you Viktor on a chat, it would be a lot of people comment.

Darin Pope 27:17
well actually received an invite or something on LinkedIn the other day, and it was from a vendor that's like, oh, since I don't remember what event it was like, Hey, we're still going to try our best to talk with everybody that was going to be there. So there's, there's people already sort of playing that game. I don't know how effective it will be. But it might actually be better than walking through the show floor. You might actually get better engagement with people.

Patrick Debois 27:42
you actually get that focus time with the customer. Right? So he has set some time away and it's not the casual like you run by a booth. You know, you want to have a T shirt, not that style, but at least they're more qualified as leads maybe.

Viktor Farcic 27:57
No, so I wonder since this year, most of the conferences will be online or canceled. I wonder maybe maybe organizers will realize that actually pouring hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars into conference. It's not really that worth it anymore. If you can get if you might be able to get similar results online.

Darin Pope 28:21
Well, let me talk about one thing that I saw this morning. Again, we're recording this on March 17. In the United States, now you can argue this point, but professional wrestling is a big deal. WWE has canceled the live WrestleMania that was going to happen at the big stadium. 65,000 people. Right? Event gone. They're taking the whole thing into a television studio with no attendees. If a freaking professional wrestler can work in a completely empty studio, and get hundreds of thousands of people to potentially watch, as a tech person, we should be able to at least get a few hundred people to watch.

Patrick Debois 29:12
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But, you know, I have the background in my previous company about doing the TV shows, and it's all about making it a show, right? If it's just present, you know, next one present. That that's boring, right? It's, it's informational. But if you compare that to some of the Twitch live streams, you know, for fundraising or stuff like that, they make a good show. You know there's humor. There's a variation. They do some stuff and, and that's kind of a new feel for it. You know, video production was already kind of hard for a lot of the conference to deal with because it's, it's quite technical, that's one but then making it like an entertainment value or like a show value that would require, like a producer almost. And, you know, conferences are not used to that, you know, I still get conference that, you know, sending in your slides two weeks ahead of time, because we want to make sure you know, they're well perfect projector or something so, so that will change. Definitely that field will change.

Darin Pope 30:19
Yeah, well, and I come from the the live event space. So to me, I toured for five or six years, right at six years. So to me, it's all about the show. It's all about the entertainment value. And I don't think most conference organizers even think that way. I don't know that they know how to think that way. They're just used to that. Here's a session. Here's a track. Here's the next slide, blah, blah, blah. Next thing versus a single thread. I think this is where single track conferences probably are going to become more the norm or there may not it may not be single track but under an umbrella. There's very much single tracks and having a producer a true producer for each track is a big deal. Maybe we can do that on the side in all our spare time, right?

Patrick Debois 31:03
Yeah, let's do that. Actually, I was talking to somebody who did like part of NBA production, and they said they were going to repurpose also existing footage but they were gonna put live commentary on it. So that again, even though you know the talk would have been recorded, imagine there was like us, pausing it and then say, you know what's this guy really said like, that was a load of crap. Like, do you believe that? And then you continue with the speaker. You know, that's just one different format again, so,

Darin Pope 31:43
right or sort of like Mystery Science Theater 3000, where you have the three little talking heads, talking. I mean, it's like somebody could produce a conference. Maybe that's the next thing to do as people produce the conference in their standard way and then we have commentators after the fact tearing the conference parapt. Probably not be a good thing but...

Viktor Farcic 32:00
I want to do that. I want to do that. Let's find talks and comment on them.

Patrick Debois 32:07
So join allthetalks.online. No, no, totally. So I would I'm trying to do that with that conference and I have some ideas but technology of conference technology, it's you know, it's still struggling. Sometimes and and definitely, like, a production is nice if it's happening from one location. And now all of a sudden we have the challenge, like this podcast that everybody's working from remote production is remote. And so it takes quite some preparation, but it's almost like the Muppets, right, like the two guys in the in, in the balcony, commenting

Darin Pope 32:46
Statler and Waldorf.

Patrick Debois 32:47
Yeah,

Darin Pope 32:47
thank you. Thank you. You must be a kid of the 70s

Patrick Debois 32:50
Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Darin Pope 32:52
This is good. I knew I liked you. now you just went up another nother 10 notches.

Patrick Debois 32:57
Okay. Thanks for that. Darin

Darin Pope 33:01
well, that's okay. That's I put. Animal's my favorite.

Viktor Farcic 33:06
Since we'll be closing soon. Can you give, give a pitch for all the talks online because it's extremely interesting and I think that people deserve to hear.

Patrick Debois 33:16
So all the talks online is something that started because all of us couldn't travel. And I just said, like, what about all these speakers? Can we get them together who can't go to conferences? And then I launched the id on Twitter, got 50 submissions. Then I tossed that inside our company Snyk, and they said, okay, run for it. It's a completely community run event. Five tracks, we have Java, NodeJS, front end, security, DevSecOps and cloud native. It's gonna be 24 hours, and we're gonna raise money for charity for the COVID virus So, you know, doing our work and raising money. I don't think it gets better than that. And I we really hope to also experiment with the format and get it like somewhere as a show. I can't say we're going to hit it, but we'll definitely try. So

Darin Pope 34:19
it's an experiment, right?

Patrick Debois 34:20
Yeah, totally.

Darin Pope 34:22
When is this event happening?

Patrick Debois 34:24
So that is a very good question. Let me Google that for you. It is the 15th of April.

Darin Pope 34:31
So you're listening to this at the right time.

Patrick Debois 34:34
And it will be for 23.999 hours.

Darin Pope 34:40
Why? What was that you just building in latency? Is that what it is?

Patrick Debois 34:45
Because because

Darin Pope 34:47
just because. How many how many nines was it? Wait, wait. That's, that's not good enough. You need five nines, five nines.

Patrick Debois 34:59
Well, you know, we said it was an experiment. So you know,

Darin Pope 35:02
okay, three nines

Patrick Debois 35:02
setting expectations, right?

Darin Pope 35:04
Okay, three nines are fine for an experiment. So April 15th, we'll include links down in the show notes for that. We can follow you, you'll send, you'll send some information to me and we'll get all your... of course if I just go to if I was to go and go and Google, you go and go, that sounds really nasty. Go and find your information and put it in there. But if you could send me that information you want posted, I'll put it on the show notes.

Patrick Debois 35:26
Yeah, I think I mostly like while working while not working. I am on Twitter, Patrick Debois. And you know, you'll see things passing by, on organize organized, but you know, you can just follow my train of thought there so,

Darin Pope 35:41
so hop on Patrick's train at twitter. Viktor, do you have anything else?

Viktor Farcic 35:46
No, it's uh, this is just reminding me that I didn't submit the talk yet.

Darin Pope 35:53
Dude, you got less than you got less than seven days. Well, if you're listening right You got more than that. But all right, well, let me let me close it up here semi close, normal, close, and then we'll do the real close. If you're listening via Apple podcast, please subscribe and leave a rating rating and review. All of our contact information including Twitter and LinkedIn can be found at DevOps Paradox comm slash contact. And if you'd like to be notified by email when a new episode is released, you can sign up at DevOps paradox.com, the link or actually, the signup form is at the top of every page. Now, I'll actually before I get to the now I'll keep going here, there are links to the slack workspace, the Voxer account and how to leave a review in the description of the episode. Now here's the now we've also started live streaming. By the time you're listening to this, we've had a couple of live streams already. If you're wanting to watch the chaos that is not normal, that you're listening to in your ears and you want to see chaos. Some of the episodes may turn into that live stream turn into normal podcast episodes. Others may just be bonuses and the only place you're gonna find out about him is if you go to the YouTube, go out to YouTube and search for DevOps Paradox. We don't have a direct link for that yet. So just go search for it. Go ahead and subscribe, ring the bell, do all the things. Also, last point, if you would like to support us, we've set up a Patreon, we've got a link to it below. We want to try to make some things better. One of the things is tried to get me out of doing all the transcripts, and maybe I can outsource that somebody else in a Patreon would help nudge that a little bit more. So that's all the asks right now, more importantly, all the talks online dot

Patrick Debois 37:41
https://www.allthetalks.online/

Darin Pope 37:42
https://www.allthetalks.online/ There we go. If we said that before, I apologize if I missed it. So all the talks online. https://www.allthetalks.online/ happening next Wednesday, if you're listening to this on April 8th, so what's happening on April 15th, that's 23.999 hours. So if you're already locked in the house, maybe that's a great day to take the day off. How are you guys? Is it just gonna be streamed on that site? Is that the plan?

Patrick Debois 38:11
Yeah, we're still figuring out the platform. So we have some time.

Darin Pope 38:17
I can help you with that. I can I have answers. That's the answer is not, by the way, close your ears, my friends. The answer is not zoom or go to webinar. No, or the other platforms. That's we can agree with that. Totally. It's been it's been interesting watching channels. People that I watched like, yesterday, yesterday being March 16 when we're recording zoom was down quite a bit go to webinar was good. A meeting was down quite a bit. So they're feeling this great influx of remote. My concern with what Viktor brought up it's like, Okay, this is gonna become normal. But the problem is people are starting to have already potentially have bad experiences with remote because the remote tools are falling apart. In fact, I saw a joke today. It's like it's one thing when you watch eight people hanging out in a Hangout, and they're talking over each other. He says, I'm watching my eight year old kid do this with a group of 20 of them in a Hangout right now. It says that's a whole nother level of craziness.

Viktor Farcic 39:17
So the real issue, at least the tie here is not the time anymore. I'm used to it. The real issue is that my whole family's looked with me in the house.

Patrick Debois 39:28
So there are ways to solve that factor.

Viktor Farcic 39:33
My issue is that they are not remote. It's the probe for

Darin Pope 39:37
now. Well, and that's the key. And I've talked to some of our co workers about that right now. It's like, okay, we've been used to working remote. Right, that's, that's normal. But now I'm a little bit different because it's just an empty nester. It's just me and my wife, so we're used to this part of it. But a lot of people have been used to sending their kids off to school off to daycare, and they've had the house primarily to themselves and now the house was full to different ways. way of working. And maybe you said that wrong Viktor. They're actually having to deal with you being at home.

Viktor Farcic 40:07
I was here first. There were not.

Darin Pope 40:11
I love I love you, Viktor. It's one of those things. Okay. Patrick, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Patrick Debois 40:18
It was really fun. Thanks for having me.

Darin Pope 40:21
And to you listening, thanks again for listening to episode number 50 of DevOps Paradox